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RE: PHP versus ASP.NET WAS: Test Hosting Recommendation
by Brian Kelsay 18 Feb '05

18 Feb '05

That is exactly what I was thinking after this thread started yesterday. Although I'm not a programmer I am getting into some scripting. I use Wise scripting at work for some things and it is pretty customized to the way you build an .msi, but I suppose like any scripting language it could be used for more than it was originally designed. Anyway, I'm using WiseScript to build an installer for a program called Rational Development Studio and Rational has Perl 5.6.1 as a component that Websphere developers can use. Point being that, as far as I know, Perl works the same on a Winders box as it does on a *nix box. There is that trouble with file paths having the "/" going the wrong direction on Winders, but I'm sure there is a decent workaround in Perl. If I could just read Perl I might understand, but Perl looks to me like some secret code. So, please someone turn Mono/.Net into something positive that is truly multi-platform, multi-language, etc. Don't just give the whole thing lip service and compromise on functionality and principals. That is why I will wait and see before I install either Mono or .Net, unless I absolutely have to. Brian Kelsay >>> "Brian Densmore" <> 02/16/05 04:56PM >>> One more thing. I am all for using mono to embrace .Net and c#. I believe we should take this opportunity to "embrace and extend" .net and c#. We should add features to ..net and to c# to make it better, faster and more useful for the world at large. We should make these features available via GPL. What better way to take away Microsoft market share than by using their own tactics against them. Plus if we add features we can be sure they really do work in cross-browser/platforms, and they are the features that we really want and are useful.

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Server Crashing Question
by Charles, Joshua Micah (UMKC-Student) 18 Feb '05

18 Feb '05

I'm currently working on a php project which I have recently loaded onto the production server. This server hosts several websites (19); my project is only related to one of these. Since I've uploaded this code, their server has crashed repeatedly, after never crashing my development machine. The owner thinks these crashes are related to my code, but admit that it could also be caused by a large increase in traffic over the last few days. Now, all I'm able to really know is my code (written in php). I would nearly guarantee that my code is not causing the problem. The only way, I would say, that it could be doing it would be an over load of the connections to the MySQL server. What I'm looking for is the opinion of someone with more experience administering servers. Is traffic the most likely cause of the problem? Thanks, Josh

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Re: Java and other environments
by Brian Kelsay 18 Feb '05

18 Feb '05

I'll go one better. Java: More than a Headache, Less than a Migraine. Brian Kelsay >>> Aaron Spiegel <spiegela(a)gmail.com> 02/18/05 10:20AM >>> > Java is more than a programming language, but less than an OS. I like that. Java: More than a State Less than a Nation.

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RE: Java and other environments
by Brian Densmore 18 Feb '05

18 Feb '05

> -----Original Message----- > From: csappenfield > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Jonathan Hutchins > > > On Thursday 17 February 2005 03:42 pm, Jeremy Turner wrote: > > > > > On Thu, Feb 17, 2005 at 11:08:53AM -0600, Jonathan Hutchins wrote: > > > > > > Java is a virtual operating system that can be installed on > > top of > > > > other operating systems. As an OS, it's somewhat limited and > > > > specialized, but that's what the "Virtual Machine" in > java is all > > > > about. > > > > > I wouldn't call Java an operating system, in the typical sense > > of the > > > word. > > > > I again refer you to the concept of the Java Virtual Machine. > > A JVM is an abstraction of an OS, just as an OS is an > abstraction of your hardware. To say one is the other makes no sense. > All semantics and definitions aside. Let's look at what Java really *does* and then compare it to what AIX does and then let's decide if Java is an OS or not. 1) Java runs as a virtual machine on top of some other layer that eventually has access to the hardware; AIX runs as a virtual machine on top of some other layer that eventually has access to the hardware. 2) One can write programs in Java; one can write programs in AIX. 3) Programs can be "compiled" in Java ; programs can be compiled in AIX. 4) Java can only compile and run Java programs ; AIX can compile and run multiple programming language programs. 5) ? ; AIX can run virtual machines inside of AIX. 6) ? ; AIX can run and control many programs simultaneously. ... Item number 4 and beyond shows us that Java is not an "OS". While it is possible to emulate compiling and running a COBOL program in Java you can't really do it. Additionally there are many other tasks that real operating systems do that Java really can't do. Java isn't an OS, it is a VM that runs on top of an OS. While there are many things you could do in Java that would make you feel that Java is an OS, there are just too many things that Java can't do. Compare the Linux kernel (even version 1) with Java and you'll see why Java is a VM and not an OS. VM <> OS VM = VM Java is more than a programming language, but less than an OS. Brian Densmore

2 1

Thunderbird email prob
by Chris Hoelscher 18 Feb '05

18 Feb '05

Got a weird one that I'm hoping someone can shed some light on.... I'm using Thunderbird email on SBC's Yahoo of a DSL service. Recently started having a problem that whenever I "wake up" from a hibernation, I can no longer connect to the pop server to get email - until I re-boot the machine! Ending Thunderbird and restarting it does nothing. I'm assuming there must be some stat file or cached password or something, but I have not been able to find it.... I am using Thunderbird so that I can have one email repository from both Linux and Winders, and I should probably mention that this behaviour is generally observed in Winders, can't say I've been able to boot into Linux for a couple weeks, so don't really know if it happens there also or not..... Thoughts? Chris.

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Re: Java and other environments
by csappenfield＠kc.rr.com 18 Feb '05

18 Feb '05

----- Original Message ----- From: Jonathan Hutchins <hutchins(a)tarcanfel.org> Date: Thursday, February 17, 2005 5:21 pm Subject: Re: Java and other environments > On Thursday 17 February 2005 03:42 pm, Jeremy Turner wrote: > > > On Thu, Feb 17, 2005 at 11:08:53AM -0600, Jonathan Hutchins wrote: > > > > Java is a virtual operating system that can be installed on > top of > > > other operating systems. As an OS, it's somewhat limited and > > > specialized, but that's what the "Virtual Machine" in java is all > > > about. > > > I wouldn't call Java an operating system, in the typical sense > of the > > word. > > I again refer you to the concept of the Java Virtual Machine. A JVM is an abstraction of an OS, just as an OS is an abstraction of your hardware. To say one is the other makes no sense. > > > Give me something like HTML that "runs" natively on multiple > > > platforms, that doesn't require me to download and install a > support> > system. > > > But basically a web browser _is_ a support system. > > A browser is an application. Maybe I'm mistaken about this, but > having looked > at the chore of downloading and installing a JVM/JRE a couple of > times, the > complexity and sheer size of Java distinguish it from something > like Firefox, > which can legitimately claim to be an application. X is an application. (What does size and complexity have to do with it?) Like a JVM, X abstracts part of the OS. Like a JVM, X isn't an OS. > I realise that diversity is part of the evolutionary process, but > as an end > user I don't want to have to download multiple, redundant > scripting systems, > especially if they are only available as, or require, a full > development > environment devoted to them. Gcc, bash, and perl are pretty much > standard > parts of Linux these days. Ruby, Python, Java, and a host of > others are, in > my opinion, solutions that have yet to justify themselves by > solving a real > problem. > > They're great for developers, programmers, designers, but not > appropriate for > end-user land. The problem with visiting end-user land, is pretty much every end-user has different "real problem[s]". > > _______________________________________________ > Kclug mailing list > Kclug(a)kclug.org > http://kclug.org/mailman/listinfo/kclug >

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RE: PHP versus ASP.NET WAS: Test Hosting Recommendation
by Brian Kelsay 17 Feb '05

17 Feb '05

Now that custom stamp thing sounds like a great idea. It could be used at a site like Cafe Press too. I don't recall how they do it. But I have gotten really sick of the flash ads on sites like yahoo. I have to put more stuff in my hosts file or use Ad Blocker on Firefox. And then you run the risk of missing images or information that is hosted on the same server as the ads. Example is images.yahoo.com and anything hosted on akamai.com Brian Kelsay >>> "Charles, Joshua Micah (UMKC-Student)" <> 02/17/05 12:02PM >>> I would agree that most of the time flash is a needless expense. There are times that using flash would be called for. Flash has the ability to call web services on the backend, and that gives you the ability to create a very rich user experience for web applications. And if you are working on specific applications like what I'm talking about, many times you have some control over the type of machines that will be accessing the application and the software it has installed. So I would call that the one plus. I originally got the idea from a local guy, Tom Collins, from first street software. They were using a flash application to create custom stamps from images the end user uploaded - very cool.

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Re: PHP versus ASP.NET WAS: Test Hosting Recommendation
by Brian Kelsay 17 Feb '05

17 Feb '05

Support system also is supposed to mean sandbox. If the java applet crashes then the VM should recover itself and not take the hosting OS down with it. I can't guarantee that is the reality of it or the way it works, but my understanding of it. I would say Flash and Shockwave do almost the same thing, but can be equally pointless on a website. You should always ask yourself if you could do the same thing with HTML or a script and have a similar user experience. Or are you creating a wiz-bang interface that is getting in the way of reading the information that you want. Brian Kelsay >>> Jonathan Hutchins <> 02/17/05 11:08AM Personally, I object to having to install an operating system on my operating system in order to see the animated dingbats on somebody's web site. Give me something like HTML that "runs" natively on multiple platforms, that doesn't require me to download and install a support system.

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RE: PHP versus ASP.NET WAS: Test Hosting Recommendation
by Charles, Joshua Micah (UMKC-Student) 17 Feb '05

17 Feb '05

>I would say Flash and Shockwave do almost the same thing, but can be >equally pointless on a website. You should always ask yourself if you >could do the same thing with HTML or a script and have a similar user >experience. Or are you creating a wiz-bang interface that is getting in >the way of reading the information that you want. I would agree that most of the time flash is a needless expense. There are times that using flash would be called for. Flash has the ability to call web services on the backend, and that gives you the ability to create a very rich user experience for web applications. And if you are working on specific applications like what I'm talking about, many times you have some control over the type of machines that will be accessing the application and the software it has installed. So I would call that the one plus. I originally got the idea from a local guy, Tom Collins, from first street software. They were using a flash application to create custom stamps from images the end user uploaded - very cool.

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RE: PHP versus ASP.NET WAS: Test Hosting Recommendation
by Charles, Joshua Micah (UMKC-Student) 17 Feb '05

17 Feb '05

>I agree. I've had Java installed on computers since somewhere around 1996 >and until this day I've only see four GUI apps written in Java that were >usable: JEdit, ldapbrowser, Azureus, and IHMCCmap. Wasn't there a bit of OpenOffice/StarOffice that Depends on Java? I know it's one of the dependencies. But I agree. UMKC depends on Java for its STAR service, and it's always been a pain.

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