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RE: Good Starter Language? (was Re: REALBasic and OpenAL)
by Leonard, Phil 01 Apr '05

01 Apr '05

>My first programming language was APL. It's an >amazing application of symbolic logic that can reduce a three-page BASIC >program to three lines of code (split into three lines mostly for >readability). Entire multi-million-dollar, multi-story computing centers >were built around the hardware that was specially designed to run it (IBM's >360/370 series). One of the first portable comuters was built to run it. > >How many people are programming in APL today? APL !! I thought I was the only one left that ever used that. I started with APL, APL\360 actually on an IBM 360/40. Those were the days.

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Not an April Fool
by Jonathan Hutchins 01 Apr '05

01 Apr '05

Wow - this is the first time I've seen a statistic like this in the year or so I've been paying attention: Number of spams : 302 ( 46.04%) Number of clean messages: 354 ( 53.96%) That's more REAL mail than SPAM!

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RE: Good Starter Language? (was Re: REALBasic and OpenAL)
by Jeremy Fowler 01 Apr '05

01 Apr '05

> I liked Pascal but what do you do with it? Measure pressure... What the #$@% do you think you do with it!?! Delphi 2005 kicks major ass. Nuff said. > Perl seems to be very easy to learn and yet extremely > powerful and can get very complex. But it has just > never really taken off as a mainstream language. > However, I've found a few applications that I would't > write in anything else. Perl? Might as well be writing code in Mandarin Chinese. The multitude of symbols and one character keywords sacrifices legibility for less typing. Perl is not for the faint of heart or the beginner. I for one hate having to keep a whole library of O'Reilly books by my side while I code. A good language should be intuitive and not require a ton of syntax memorization. Python is better, but not by much. > I don't really like Java but it's all the rage today. > And how many times have we all heard that the new > language was going to replace all the other languages? > Sure, it's good for a lot of things but I really > don't think I'd recommend it as a beginner language > any more that I'd make 6-year-olds use a calculator to > learn 1+1=2. I have no use for Java. > For a language that is good and introduces you to a > lot of topics and is easy to start learning and can > get very complex later as you grow you really can't > beat C or C++. C/C++/C# can get a little involved for the beginner. However, it has proven the test of time, and I have to admit I broke my cherry with C. ;-) > BASIC, in all of it's forms, I've found really stinks > IMHO. agreed.

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RE: Good Starter Language? (was Re: REALBasic and OpenAL)
by Garrett Goebel 01 Apr '05

01 Apr '05

How about starting out with understanding the machine? Write Great Code: Understanding the Machine http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1593270038/ product description: > If you've asked someone the secret to writing efficient, > well-written software, the answer that you've probably > gotten is "learn assembly language programming." By > learning assembly language programming, you learn how the > machine really operates and that knowledge will help you > write better high-level language code. A dirty little > secret assembly language programmers rarely admit to, > however, is that what you really need to learn is machine > organization, not assembly language programming. Write > Great Code Vol I, the first in a series from assembly > language expert Randall Hyde, dives right into machine > organization without the extra overhead of learning assembly > language programming at the same time. And since Write Great > Code Vol I concentrates on the machine organization, not > assembly language, the reader will learn in greater depth > those subjects that are language-independent and of concern > to a high level language programmer. Write Great Code Vol I > will help programmers make wiser choices with respect to > programming statements and data types when writing software, > no matter which language they use. except from a review: > This is a most interesting book. It's positioned kind of > halfway between the book on a programming language and the > data book for the CPU. It contains a lot of information > that the computer science classes don't bother to include. > On the whole it is rather machine independent (hard to do > in today's world where the Pentium class machines are so > prevalent), so if you are working on a Power PC or an ARM > chip the material here would still have value. -- Garrett Goebel IS Development Specialist ScriptPro Direct: 913.403.5261 5828 Reeds Road Main: 913.384.1008 Mission, KS 66202 Fax: 913.384.2180 www.scriptpro.com garrett(a)scriptpro.com

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RE: Good Starter Language? (was Re: REALBasic and OpenAL)
by Jeremy Fowler 01 Apr '05

01 Apr '05

assembler... ;-) Learn from the inside out! Seriously though, I would say Delphi and/or Kylix. -----Original Message----- From: kclug-bounces(a)kclug.org [mailto:kclug-bounces@kclug.org]On Behalf Of Leo Mauler Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2005 1:40 PM To: D. Hageman; Kclug Subject: Good Starter Language? (was Re: REALBasic and OpenAL) If not BASIC, then what would be the programming language of choice for the beginner? Ideas accepted from all. --- "D. Hageman" <dhageman(a)dracken.com> wrote: > > I know a couple of weeks ago I posted a message > recommended a person not learn REALBasic for > their first language. I still believe in this > very much, but we do apparently have a couple > of people on this list that work with REALBasic. . And I always thought: the very simplest words Must be enough. When I say what things are like Everyone's heart must be torn to shreds. That you'll go down if you don't stand up for yourself Surely you see that. -- Bertolt Brecht __________________________________ Yahoo! Messenger Show us what our next emoticon should look like. Join the fun. http://www.advision.webevents.yahoo.com/emoticontest _______________________________________________ Kclug mailing list Kclug(a)kclug.org http://kclug.org/mailman/listinfo/kclug

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RE: Good Starter Language? (was Re: REALBasic and OpenAL)
by Jeremy Fowler 31 Mar '05

31 Mar '05

> whatever happened to Logo, with it's turtle that draws lines like an > etch-a-sketch? > > graphics are fun to work with as a beginner, just to enjoy the thrill > of bossing your > machine around. Beginners aren't really concerned with > practical problems like > log parsing or data validation. Carnage Heart was one of the best older playstation games I had ever played. In it you built custom Mech robots with different body types, weapons, and CPUs. The really cool part was the ability to customize the A.I. by combining together various commands or chips on this grid system. You would build and program a mech warrior (called an OKE in the game) and then throw him into a battle to see how he does. Programming was an essential part of the game and a great introduction to Boolean logic and algorithms. This game is in a class of its own and I have yet to see its equal - and desperately would like to.

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RE: Good Starter Language? (was Re: REALBasic and OpenAL)
by James Sissel 31 Mar '05

31 Mar '05

I liked Pascal but what do you do with it? Perl seems to be very easy to learn and yet extremely powerful and can get very complex. But it has just never really taken off as a mainstream language. However, I've found a few applications that I would't write in anything else. I don't really like Java but it's all the rage today. And how many times have we all heard that the new language was going to replace all the other languages? Sure, it's good for a lot of things but I really don't think I'd recommend it as a beginner language any more that I'd make 6-year-olds use a calculator to learn 1+1=2. For a language that is good and introduces you to a lot of topics and is easy to start learning and can get very complex later as you grow you really can't beat C or C++. BASIC, in all of it's forms, I've found really stinks IMHO. --- Jeremy Fowler <JFowler(a)westrope.com> wrote: > assembler... ;-) Learn from the inside out! > > Seriously though, I would say Delphi and/or Kylix. > > > Of Leo Mauler > Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2005 1:40 PM > To: D. Hageman; Kclug > Subject: Good Starter Language? (was Re: REALBasic > and OpenAL) > > If not BASIC, then what would be the programming > language of choice for the beginner? > > Ideas accepted from all. > > --- "D. Hageman" <dhageman(a)dracken.com> wrote: > > > > I know a couple of weeks ago I posted a message > > recommended a person not learn REALBasic for > > their first language. I still believe in this > > very much, but we do apparently have a couple > > of people on this list that work with REALBasic.

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RE: Good Starter Language? (was Re: REALBasic and OpenAL)
by Garrett Goebel 31 Mar '05

31 Mar '05

Leo Mauler wrote: > > If not BASIC, then what would be the programming language > of choice for the beginner? That's like asking for a good tool without telling us how you intend to use it... What fun exciting cool thing does the beginner want to do? -- Garrett Goebel IS Development Specialist ScriptPro Direct: 913.403.5261 5828 Reeds Road Main: 913.384.1008 Mission, KS 66202 Fax: 913.384.2180 www.scriptpro.com garrett at scriptpro dot com

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Good Starter Language? (was Re: REALBasic and OpenAL)
by Brian Kelsay 31 Mar '05

31 Mar '05

Spanish. ;-) Brian Kelsay >>> Leo Mauler <webgiant(a)yahoo.com> 03/31/05 01:39PM >>> If not BASIC, then what would be the programming language of choice for the beginner? Ideas accepted from all.

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Cyrus/Postfix
by Jonathan Hutchins 31 Mar '05

31 Mar '05

For some reason one of my Gentoo servers has decidedthat Postfix should deliver mail to the local maildirs instead of to the Cyrus imap server. I have no idea why this change happened - I know I killed somethign by accidentally removing MySQL (even though it wasn't running), and aparantly that caused Postfix to be braindead. (?) Anyway, if someone knows off-hand where the magic switch is, I'd appreciate it, otherwise I won't be able to dig into the configuration files to find and fix it until tomorrow. (Fortunately it's not overly critical, besides my own mail it only handles faxes, most of which are junk.)

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